Quick note on Clash of Kings

[chocolatepot]

Spoiler-cut even though I've only gotten about two or three chapters in.

- I'm slightly confused about some terminology. So, Westeros was first inhabited by the Children of the Forest (roughly analoguous to some kind of mythical pre-Celts), who were pushed north by the First Men (Celts), who were pushed north by the Andals (Angles, Saxons, etc.), who were ??? by the Targaryen-wave of conquest (Normans)? Or are two of those groups the same?

- I'm not fond of the "8,000 years" thing. (This may have come up at the end of GoT, I can't remember.) That is a super long time for people to be using as "we've been doing this so long" in an oral tradition, if you know what I mean. 800 would seem more realistic to me. I'm trying to imagine anyone in the late 15th century, when I'm picturing this as due to the Wars of the Roses thing, talking about some group of people having been doing their thing since 6500 BCE and it's just not working.

- SAAAANSAAAAA. Her position is one that I find extremely interesting - powerless and held in captivity, but able to affect circumstances through cleverness, like when she gets Joffrey to be slightly less of a dick. I just eat up that kind of conflict with a spoon. It's more interesting to me, in a lot of ways, than two people fighting each time they run into each other. (Or battles, unfortunately.)

- Oh, Tyrion, Shae is so marked for death but the way you feel about her is so endearing. :( Characters who are the only ones in their families to be genuine are my one weakness.

I would be happy if this whole book were from their perspectives, not going to lie.

Comments

[julianrain.livejournal.com]

The Children of the Forest were pushed not North, but into the forests by the First Men. Not exactly forced either, hey did go to war with the First Men and later entered a truce with them known as the Pact where the CoF kept the forests and the humans kept the open areas. They later joined forces with the humans during the Long Night to fight the first War for the Dawn.

I don't know who you'd classify as Celts. The Children did follow a pagan-esque religion and in fact the war was started because the humans destroyed their Weirwoods. But the First Men later abandoned their own gods and took the Children's religion for their own.

The Andals (who I guess correspond to the Saxons) invaded from the Fingers, to the east of the Vale. They expanded both North and South, conquering the kingdoms of the FIrst Men, but they could not conquer north of the Neck (because of Moat Cailin).

The Rhoynar came later, fleeing the influence of Valyria. They integrated with the Andals of Dorne and set up their own customs and laws including gender blind primogeniture.

By this time the power of Valyria has reached as far west as Dragonstone (which is just of the East Coast of what will become King's Landing). For un know reasons they never invade Westeros. Dragonstone becomes the seat of House Targaryen.

After Valyria is destroyed, the Targaryen are left as the last Great House of Valyria. They invade about a century later.

I think one big difference between the Targaryen and the Normans is that Aegon and his sisters did not have an actual army. What gave them the edge was their three dragons. The Andals were not replaced or pushed back by the Valyrians simply because the Targaryens were a single family.

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

Thank you, this is helpful! I realized towards the end of GoT that I was just hopelessly confused. I guess I could have used a wiki or something, but what are friends for? :D

Especially helpful re: Andals, because I had thought that the present-day people were (descended from the) Andals and then something was said somewhere and I got confused.

[julianrain.livejournal.com]

Present day people do have a hefty chunk of both First Men and Andal blood although the proportions are different north and south of the neck. I would guess that the only people who are more or less pure blooded First Men are the wildlings although many of them would have a little Andal decent due to illicit tyrsts between them and the men of the Night's Watch who come from all seven kingdoms.

Also 'Andal' is used as a generic term for Westerosi especially by people from across the Narrow Sea.

Wikis spoil. And I'm not talking about theories like Jon's parentage but events as pivotal as Ned's execution. I hope you didn't get spoiled for that until you either saw it or read it fr yourself.

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

Also 'Andal' is used as a generic term for Westerosi especially by people from across the Narrow Sea.

I think that's where I got caught up, yeah. Probably.

I think I was spoiled for Ned's death, sadly, but only a week or so before it happened on the show. I'm working to stay relatively spoiler-free for the rest of the series, at least for the big things.

[lavinialavender.livejournal.com]

Wow! I've been an ASOIAF fan for years, but I never realized...all of this. O.O Only bits and pieces. Thanks!