Might surprise you, Bizarre!

[chocolatepot]

I don't know if complicated is the right word, but they are definitely mixed.

- Moffat is definitely having some of the same issues as RTD. His finales are a similar kind of overload with similar connect-all-the-dots plots. I think there's a bit of a difference, though - the second half of this season hasn't been "woo sneaky arc word", it's been a mostly ongoing plot, and in general his arc stuff is stuff you wonder about the whole time instead of references slipped in that you don't notice until after it has a meaning. But yeah, overload finales bringing every kind of alien and every past episode together are their own kind of silly.

- I don't think it was genderfail to have Amy basically used as a womb by the bad guys. Not inherently, in itself. And from a narrative standpoint, I think I'd rather have a fake non-pregnant Amy running around rather than have to worry about her fetus's health as she runs around and fights robots. BUT. I think it was an enormous mistake to have Amy's baby be stolen and grow into River.
1. That's a LOT of trauma to heap on Amy
2. Which feels both unfair and overkill
3. And there's not enough of an effect on her, from neither the captivity nor the baby-stealing
4. Which isn't good characterization, I don't think

- I SAID the handcuffs thing was going to be non-sexual. I said it. And it was. I know all and see all. I had thought he would actually tell her his name, though, but it's funny that he didn't after the talk of how OOC that was. Except what does that mean for SitL/FotD when she said his name, if he never told her? Incidentally, I'm kind of confused as to when River and the Doctor fell in love, because he doesn't seem at all in love with her, to me - flirty, yes, but he flirts with everyone, but a different level of flirting because they're on the same level and so many people he flirts with aren't. And the marriage was pretty non-romantic, too. (NB I did like the look at Gallifreyan marriage customs.) I'm just kind of meh on the whole Doctor/River thing. It just feels like they're making it up as they go along, instead of having it thought out ahead of time.

Comments

[bizarreoptimism.livejournal.com]

Except what does that mean for SitL/FotD when she said his name, if he never told her?

It is as if they forgot this plot point. We are FLAT-OUT TOLD in SitL/FotD that River knows his name, but we're currently at a point wherein the Doctor and River are married (possibly, kind of) and she still doesn't for-sure know it. It is seriously like the writers/producers forgot. (Unless they are planning on having her discover his name in a future episode.) Kind of like Amy and Rory seemed to forget that they had a child which was stolen.

(HONESTLY, of everything to come out of Moffat!Era that I've heard about, this is the only one I flail over. WHY DID THEY STOP TRYING TO GET THEIR DAUGHTER BACK?? And here's the thing: I TOTALLY could have accepted that they wanted to get their daughter back and the Doctor was all, No, you can't, you can't get her back because her timeline is already set, the kidnapping already happened and you already knew her as a young child when YOU were young children and that is all set and it can't be changed without the timeline being destroyed and the Reapers coming and bringing about the ruination of the Universe. And Amy and Rory would have argued with him but ultimately would have had to accept their daughter being gone because if they got her back it would Ruin Time Itself and it all would have been plot-point fine. But since no such conversation ever happened, it is seriously like Amy and Rory just forgot. I just I don't even.)

I'm glad to hear the handcuffs thing is non-sexual (and it amuses me to know you called it!). I still hate that gosh-damn handcuffs line with every fiber of my being, and knowing it turned out to be something non-sexual doesn't help me at all. I also want to take that line of Moffat's from like 4 years ago in which he answered the question, "Is River the Doctor's wife?" with, "It's much more complicated than that," and jam said line up his nose. No, it wasn't, okay? I mean, how she GOT to be the Doctor's wife was a very complicated plotline, but she is in fact just flat-out his One True Romantic Interest, okay? Like we all said, you know? Geez.

NOW, FOR ALL THAT -- having River marry (or whatever) the Doctor really did make me hate her less. It really, really did. After reading that they do in fact get married, I kept thinking about how awful it must have been for her in SitL/FotD, seeing her husband who did not even know he was her husband (let alone knowing who she even was) and knowing that it was the last time she was going to see him, and because of *that* knowing that she was about to die. Her cheekiness and smarmyness makes sense; it was whistling-in-the-dark to cover up how scared and sad she must have been. And, y'know: I feel.

If only SitL/FotD hadn't been a "Doctor Who" story, I could actually come to really enjoy it now. Alas, it is, so I won't -- but I want my River Song Credit-Giving to be noted just the same. ;-D

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

And here's the thing: I TOTALLY could have accepted that they wanted to get their daughter back and the Doctor was all, No, you can't

ME TOO. It totally makes sense to me why they wouldn't have actually been able to, but it doesn't make any sense to me for them to go, "oh, well, she's River and we know River survives into adulthood so I guess she's all right."

I mean, how she GOT to be the Doctor's wife was a very complicated plotline, but she is in fact just flat-out his One True Romantic Interest, okay?

IDK, the wedding was more of a marriage of convenience, I thought, which does make it a bit complicated. Although lately I seem to be very stupid when it comes to understanding what's going on in Who, so let me rewatch that bit ... yeah, my impression was that he married her just to get her to go along with what he wanted her to do. It's kind of bizarre and I don't know if it comes from strange writing or Matt Smith's interpretation of the writing or my mind or if it's actually meant to come across that way.

it was whistling-in-the-dark to cover up how scared and sad she must have been. And, y'know: I feel.

+1. I need to rewatch those eps now.

[julianrain.livejournal.com]

Did you see the prequel to 'Let's Kill Hitler'?

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

I did, but - it sounds stupid when I look at it - I felt like they should have wanted to try more after that. Even though it's irrational. Or that they should have seemed ... sadder, or something, during this half of the season. It just felt kind of "well, we've put this behind us."

I should go back and do a rewatch of the entire season, though.

[bizarreoptimism.livejournal.com]

I haven't watched the show myself, so I dunno personally -- but I can tell you that my pal who has been watching "Doctor Who" (and keeps me filled in about the plot developments) also felt that the prequel to "Let's Kill Hitler" just wasn't enough. And it's exactly what you said -- she felt that Amy and Rory still should have wanted to try, or have been affected by what had happened more than they actually were (which is to say, "at all").

So it wasn't just you wanting more. :) And I have to add here: maybe Really Important Things should not be crammed into non-episode teasers or Children in Need specials or whatnot. Maybe you need to make sure Really Important Things (and reacting to your missing child is one of those) happen within an episode proper, y'know? I know the prequel is canon and all, but it's just -- c'mon, okay? The two-minute bonus teaser is not the place to deal with this sort of issue.

Moffat's not the only one to make this mistake, mind. It always bugged me that the only place that Rose asks about Captain Jack (after they leave him behind in The Parting of the Ways) is in the two-minute Children in Need prequel thingy to "Christmas Invasion." Really? You've been traveling with this guy for presumably months, and you really care about him, and when the head of your traveling party leaves him behind, all this warrants from you is a single question about going back for him which you can't even bother to ask in an episode proper? REALLY??

... yeah. Prequels and bonuses are nice, but they are the place to have fun and the place to be EXTRA, a la "Time Crash." EXTRAS are not the place to put huge character arc stuff. You know?

(:end rant:) (I have no idea why I feel strongly enough about this to rant about it for that long; go figure. XD)

[bizarreoptimism.livejournal.com]

I still don't really understand the wedding. We know that River is in love with the Doctor, but is the Doctor in love with her? I know the marriage was a marriage of convenience, but do we know the feelings the Doctor has about River yet? (My Who-watching friend backs up your confusion about the Doctor's motives and feelings towards River so I don't think it's just how you're reading it or anything!)

I was getting a bit (bitterly, because apparently I will never let this go) tongue-in-cheek when I said that River is the Doctor's One True Romantic Interest, considering that we still can't tell how he feels about her. It's just ... she was/is a romantic interest. She is not the Doctor's secret sister, she is not a long-lost Time Lord, she is not the Doctor in a future incarnation (now, THAT would have been the only way I would have approved of SitL/FotD). She's a woman who fell in love with the Doctor and eventually marries him. Like we all said. It just bugged me when I used to complain about not liking River as a long interest, and people would point to the Moffat quote about "she's so much more than that" and then tell me, "She might not be a love interest! He says right there it's more complicated than that!" And, No, in fact it wasn't. Unless by "more complicated" one means "we can't tell if the Doctor is just manipulating her or if he really LIKES her," in which case, I mean -- um, "yay"? :P

... honestly, there's no way my television screen would have survived all the bricks I'd have winged at it if I'd watched the new stuff. (More to the point: there's no way my Doctor Who love would have survived all the new stuff, and losing Doctor Who would have broken my *heart*.) But I _really do_ appreciate River more now, although I feel REALLY really bad that her life is such crap. MAN. (And it makes me feel even a little bit worse about her ultimate fate as a ghost of consciousness trapped in Fake!Suburbia Camazotz. :P)

BEST THING I CAN SAY: If she'd shown up in a completely different Story, River Song is a character I could have seriously fallen in love with. For what that's worth! ;-)

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

IDK, I think "more complicated" referred to her being more than just "the Doctor's wife" - not that she's complicatedly married to him (although I think the ambiguity does kind of make it complicated there as well) but that she's the Doctor's wife AND Rory/Amy's kid AND was raised to kill him.

Yeah, thinking about River's life overall is pretty depressing.